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Debian, anti-trans 

There are some people in Debian who insist on misgendering and deadnaming trans- or non-binary people. There are others who get upset if the first group is criticized or told to stop. All of these haters are part of why I don't want to be in the Debian project anymore.

There are also people in Debian who are kind, wise, and suppotive to a degree that is incredible. Unfortunately, it's not enough to undo the damage the haters do.

I'm not going back until the haters are gone.

Debian, anti-trans 

@liw Not saying you made the wrong decision, but I would think that senior people with technical expertise would be the people having the leverage to change the situation. Awful situation, I didn't know about this.

Debian, anti-trans 

@jonne @liw in my experience technical expertise is useless and counterproductive to address and eradicate this kind of problems, instead it enables a sense of superiority in certain categories of people. And Debian doesn't lack technical expertise at all.

I respect your decision but at the same time I wonder if it's the best action to help trans folks have a positive life in Debian.

Debian, anti-trans 

@steko @jonne I do wonder, though, what you’re both doing to make the Debian community better for trans people?

Debian, anti-trans 

@ghost_bird @steko Nothing; I'm not part of the Debian community.

Debian, anti-trans 

@jonne @steko Just to make that point, really.

Debian, anti-trans 

@liw

May I post this on twitter ?

Debian, anti-trans 

@liw This is pretty disappointing, though not entirely surprising. I grok you wanting to get away from such toxic environs.

re: Debian, anti-trans 

@liw I find this both surprising and disappointing.

Debian, anti-trans 

@liw ooof, didn't know that, thanks for sharing
Is there some CoC or something like that?

Debian, anti-trans 

@charlag @liw yes, but it doesn't actually say anything about bigotry, just "differences of opinion". debian.org/code_of_conduct

@liw Are you concerned that this person might be misgendered? And does it not equally concern you that women are being fired from their jobs for identifying men as males?

@alex @liw So much context and empathy lost here. Murray is a non-binary who, in that quote, complained about TERF lesbians blocking the London pride march because it supported trans people - naturally, the insult didn't go to all (cis) lesbians. Maya got fired for refusing their pronouns and denying their identity. This picture taken from r/GenderCritical implies that having a beard and not calling yourself a man is disgusting and an attack towards (cis) women, which is dehumanizing.

@alex @liw Finally, you are presenting a dichotomy that does not exist, as Murray didn't displace Maya in her job - and in the global context, just by mere intuitive maths, there is no way trans people (which, remember, Murray is non-binary) are displacing cis women as such group far outweights the other, and if that ever happens it will be because everyone born with a vagina will have become trans. And one group's rights in no way contradict the other, and in fact join together as human rights.

@alex @liw So the key question arises: Are you concerned that this person might not be misgendered? And does it not equally concern you that trans people are being attacked for asking people to respect them? Don't people have a right over their identities, over what defines one as a person, as we so assume with names? What happens to respect, that some cannot hold it when one uses an identity that isn't linked to the genitals they were born with?

@alex @liw You can dislike and disapprove their insults, that's perfectly fine. As for everything else? You're trying to justify the unjustifiable. You can be as critical and disagreeing as you want, but how you think and feel about what reality is isn't a free pass for trampling on others' dignity nor to exclude them. Please consider this.

Hey @espectalll, I appreciate your openness to dialogue. I think it's important we can discuss things we disagree about.

I'm a gender nonconforming man. The only difference between me and Murray is that Murray identifies as non-binary.

I don't think a person should be able to simply say they identify a certain way and then expect that they can opt out of the societal influences surrounding sex. I don't feel comfortable being a man, but I have still been socialized as a man. Men rule the world (patriarchy). We are more likely to commit acts of violence, and less likely to do household tasks or support children. Changing the way one identifies doesn't erase these things, and people should have the freedom to point that out. First and foremost I'm pro-feminist, and I don't support women's rights being eroded.

I agree with this perspective of non-binary: 4w.pub/non-binary-is-the-new-n

@liw

@alex @liw First of all, I'll acknowledge the goalpost shifting you just did. Non-binary and overall trans validity is not a debatable question, and someone's discriminatory refusal to use a pronoun and the consequent job loss isn't a priority over people's dignity and lives, particularly with a minority that is disproportionately unemployed. Let's make that clear.

@alex @liw Being non-conforming and non-binary isn't the same but calling yourself differently. Being agender, bigender, genderfluid or anything not fitting within guy or girl isn't something one picks up just for acting rebel, nor an embracement or escapism of oppression - which comes from gender roles that non-binaries break. It's not merely wanting to dress this or that way or act this or that way. It's all about plurality.

@alex @liw It's about the plurality of how people can feel about themselves, how genders are interpreted and play into one's individual dynamic, acknowledging it's not linked to our body parts. We will free ourselves from gender roles not by telling us only sex exists, but by detaching and getting rid of roles, by making everyone free to be themselves without shame or polarization.

You can still be a femboy or whatever doesn't conform to your (cis) gender. Not everyone fits that.

Debian, anti-trans 

@liw I totally feel you - and even though I see three well known troublemakers in the thread, and I don't deny that the vocal minority is an issue, the silent majority that enables them is the more disturbing issue frankly spoken. I'm very grateful that the issue with the silent bystanders enabling the abuse has been pointed out (not only by the abused). I see that as a basic requirement to improve these situations.

Debian, anti-trans 

@liw I'm not letting the haters destroy the community that was an important support for my transition during these last 15 years. I'm working on articles about these power dynamics to make it easier to understand (although for those willing to LMGTFO there are already loads out there if one would only search)

re: Debian, anti-trans 

@liw sounds like the third group needs to have a chat with the second group about what the first group is doing

Debian, anti-trans 

@liw It’s tough to work in a atmosphere like that even if you’re not being directly targeted, and it’s an honourable choice to save your energy for something better. Hope you can find a better community to contribute to.

re: Debian, anti-trans 

@liw In Debian, I was heartened by the DPL's clear stance on this: https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2019/12/msg00016.html

Ensuring it's *applied* in cases where people have been violating is another matter, of course. Definitely some bad apples in there at the moment.

Debian, anti-trans 

@liw that’s upsetting and disappointing. To me this goes against any claims of universality that Debian may have. Thank you for sharing.

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